Ma Jun, a former journalist who has become one of China’s most prominent environmentalists, was recently honored with a Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship for the work of his nongovernmental organization, the Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs, in increasing awareness about sources of pollution in China.In an interview, he described recent changes in the public’s concerns about the environment, his efforts to increase transparency about the sources of pollution and his organization’s launch of a new version of a mobile phone application that allows users to track the state of air and water degradation and learn how to make more environmentally sound decisions when they shop. Excerpts follow:作为中国尤为卓越的环保主义人士之一，曾所作记者的马军所创立的非政府的组织公众与环境研究中心(Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs)强化了中国公众对污染源的意识。近日，他因此获颁“斯科尔社会企业家奖”(Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship)。在拒绝接受专访时，马军谈及了公众近年在环境注目方面的改变，自己在提升污染源透明度方面的希望，以及公众与环境研究中心所发售的新版移动应用于，它需要协助用户跟踪各省空气和水质好转的情况，并且自学在购物时如何才能做更为环保。专访摘录如下：Q. How did you come up with the idea for this app?问：制作这个应用于的点子是怎么来的？A. It was 2013. At that time, after we released the pollution map on the PC platform, we were able to motivate more than 1,700 companies to change their behavior. But there were many more and obviously we needed to scale up our work.问：那是2013年的事。

当时我们在PC平台上发售了污染地图后，顺利地动员了多达1700家污染企业转变他们的污水处理不道德。但是还有更加多这样的企业，很显著，我们必须不断扩大工作规模。We needed more people to join this effort and we needed a higher level of transparency. So we decided to launch a transparency initiative with 25 organizations and N.G.O.s calling for a total release of monitoring data.我们必须更加多人一起共同努力，必须更高的透明度。

所以我们要求同25家的组织和NGO一起发动一场透明度倡议，敦促公布整体监测数据。Our first request was for online monitoring data. For more than 10 years this kind of data could only be accessed by environmental agencies, not by the public. To our surprise, the Ministry of Environmental Protection came up with a bylaw to require real-time disclosure.我们首先拒绝的是在线监测数据。在过去十多年里，只有环保部门才能提供这类数据，公众是无法取得的。不过让我们吃惊的是，国家环保部公布了一项规定，拒绝对数据展开动态透露。

Starting in 2004, more than 20 provinces created platforms to carry real-time monitoring data on China’s largest industries.2004年开始，20多个省搭起了平台，发布对中国仅次于几个行业的动态监测数据。Toward the end of 2013 we started preparing this app. The real-time disclosure created a need and also made it possible to sustain such a product.到2013年底，我们开始筹划这款应用于。数据的动态透露建构了一种市场需求，同时也使它能撑得起这样一个产品。

The mobile Internet is so popular. We believe it can help people to access the data and, more than that, tap into social media. So people can not only access monitoring data but also share it.移动互联网十分热门。我们坚信它不仅需要协助人们提供监测数据，还能让人们通过利用社交媒体共享数据。Q. How does the app work?问：它是怎么用的呢？A. The 1.0 version was launched on June 9, 2013. It provided people access to air quality data in 190 cities, plus monitoring data for major air pollution emitters. Air quality data is something that people really need in China. Many cities can’t meet healthy air quality standards, and people check air quality data like they check weather forecasts.问：我们在2013年6月9号发售了应用于的1.0 版本。

它向人们获取190座城市的空气质量数据，以及主要空气污染源的监测数据。空气质量数据是中国人尤其必须的东西。很多城市无法超过身体健康的空气质量标准，人们像查阅天气预报一样频密地查阅空气质量数据。

Then we added monitoring data. There are many people who don’t just want to know which day the air is bad and when they need to keep their children indoors, they want to solve this problem. This app gives them chance to join the fight against pollution.之后我们减少了监测数据。很多人不只是想要告诉哪一天空气差劲，什么时候孩子不应外出，他们想解决问题这个问题。这款应用于获取机会让他们一起重新加入对付污染行列。They can share monitoring data on Weibo and let more people understand the pollution problem and the violation record of those major emitters.人们可以通过微博来共享监测数据，让更加多的人理解污染问题和主要污染源的违法记录。

Through this more than 400 emitters have openly addressed their emissions records. Sometimes they claim something is wrong with the data. Many more explain what went wrong and how they solved the problem. Some provide detailed correction plans. In Shandong Province, government agencies gave them deadlines to fix the problem. We created a countdown clock attached to each factory, so when users click it they can see the corrective action plan with the countdown clock.多达400家污染企业对他们的污染记录作出了公开发表对此。有些时候，污染企业声称数据有误。更好的时候则是对污染问题和他们的解决方案展开说明。

有些企业则获取了详尽的排查方案。在山东省，政府机构拒绝企业限期整顿污染问题。

我们在应用于上给每一家工厂设置了倒计时，这样用户点进应用于就能看见排查行动计划和倒计时。If they comply with the standards, the company turns blue, otherwise it’s shown in red. It’s quite visual and the whole process is under public scrutiny.如果企业遵从标准，那么它们在应用于上就不会表明为蓝色，否则就为红色。这是非常形象的，整个过程都受到了公众的监督。

The 1.0 version only addresses air quality, but the new version, which is being officially launched on the 28th [of April], will help people access water quality data for rivers and lakes in different parts of China and monitoring data for major sewage plants, paper mills, dye houses and chemical factories.新版本的应用于将于4月28号月发售。和只获取空气质量数据的1.0版本有所不同， 新版本的应用于将不会协助人们提供中国各地的河流湖泊的水质数据，以及主要污水处理厂、造纸厂、印染厂和化工厂的监测数据。

Q. How many downloads have you had?问：早已有多少下载量？A. Including tests of the 2.0 version, so far more than three million.问：还包括2.0测试版本，目前有数多达300万次iTunes。There has been such interaction between ordinary people and environmental agencies. I haven’t seen anything quite like this before.普通民众和环境部门之间的对话十分活跃，这是我以前从未见过的。

Q. What has the official response been? Sometimes from the government you see both sides. They want public involvement, but they’re also wary.问：官方的反应怎么样？有时政府展现出出有两面性，他们想公众参予，但又很警觉。A. I would say that’s definitely true with our app. The most proactive players are Shandong and Zhejiang provinces and a few others. There are also many local environmental agencies that have concerns and complaints. It caught some unprepared, when you suddenly get so many reports against some of the largest companies in a region.对我们的应用于而言，知道是这样。最大力的参与者在山东、浙江以及其他几个省份。

也有许多地方的环境部门有担忧和责怪。有的地方实在猝不及防，忽然接到那么多针对当地大公司的检举。

Sometimes they have gaps in their capacity, human resources and budget. And sometimes they have restrictions. The local officials, their superiors, interfere with enforcement. They get stuck in the middle.他们有时在能力、人力资源和财政方面有艰难。有时还遇上容许。地方官员，他们的上级，还不会强迫介入，这让他们左右为难。We need to communicate with those local agencies to try to help them deal with this, to work out plans to handle this new situation.我们必须和那些地方上的政府部门交流，协助他们想要出有处置这种新的情况的办法。

There are proactive ones. In Shandong, the head of the provincial Environmental Protection bureau invited us there. That’s a province with 100 million people burning 400 million tons of coal a year, probably half the total U.S. consumption. It’s quite energy intensive.有的很大力。在山东，省环保局的领导向我们收到了邀。

这个具有一亿人口的能源消耗大省，每年自燃四亿吨煤，完全相等于仅有美国一半的消耗量。I thought we were going to be under pressure, but actually he said, “This is exactly what we want. I’ve been told to solve this smog problem. We try hard but we can’t do it single-handedly. We need the public. The app will help. We just want make sure people don’t misinterpret the fact we have more red dots.”我当时以为是要向我们施加压力，但是那位领导说道，“这就是我们想的。我奉命要解决问题这个雾霾问题。

我们很希望，但是只能靠我们是敢的。我们必须公众。这款应用于不会起起到。

我们只是想要保证不要被人误会，为什么我们的红点尤其多。”We help them explain [to citizens] it’s better to have an environmental agency give more comprehensive data.我们老大他们（对公众）说明，环境部门获取更加详尽的数据是件好事。

Last year there was a statement by the premier [Li Keqiang] about going to war against pollution. Actions followed to really make it happen. In my view this decision to make online monitoring data transparent, this is a sign of China’s political will to fight pollution. I said that in the Skoll Award ceremony, and it got a standing ovation. It’s clear that if you give data to people you empower them. It’s no longer possible to continue to cover up or give continued protection to major polluters.去年[李克强]总理作出了向污染开战的声明。随后有贯彻的行动。

在我看来，这项让在线监督数据更加半透明的要求，指出中国是不愿压制污染的。我在斯科尔颁奖典礼上这么说道了，观众都鼓掌起立。很显著如果你把数据发布给民众，就会有遮住或者是之后维护主要污染者的事了。

In China the biggest barrier is not technology or money. It’s lack of motivation. Enforcement remains weak. In the West, people go to court. In China that judicial protection is not yet ready. We need to find alternative ways. In my view public participation is one of the few options.在中国仅次于的障碍不是技术或者钱，而是缺少动力。环境执法人员部门仍然弱势。在西方可以上法庭。

而在中国，司法维护还没有准备好。我们必须寻找更加多方式。

在我看来公众参予就是其中之一。If people can check on their cellphone who is in violation, those who gave protection [to polluters] can be held accountable.如果人们能在手机上寻找谁在违法，那些给与（污染者）维护的人就能受到问责。

Q. Do you think public attitudes about pollution are changing?问：你指出公众对污染的态度在转变吗？A. Over all in China there is so much more recognition. I basically think this is a clear sign for the central government. There is political will to try to solve the problem. They understand this matter is a public health issue, a resource issue, a social stability issue and, last but not least, there’s the global issue to fight climate change. There’s a recognition. They are genuinely trying to bring this pollution issue under control. They created an air action plan and a water action plan.问：总的来说了解上早已有相当大提升。基本上我指出这对中央政府是一个明晰信号。

他们有政治意愿企图解决问题。他们明白这事关公众身体健康问题、资源问题、社会平稳问题，特别是在还有应付气候变化的全球问题。有了这样的共识，他们心里想掌控污染问题，还就空气和水的问题分别制订了行动方案。Having said that, on the ground it’s still challenging to turn this into action. There are so much interests that could be offended, that could be impacted. And also there’s the gap we have in environmental governance. Because the cost of violations is still lower than the cost of compliance, market forces are not on our side.即便如此，要把这些变成行动在事实上仍有艰难。

有过于多利益不会被侮辱，不会被影响。同时在环境治理方面也有缺口。

因为违规的代价仍旧高于合规，市场的力量没反映出来。Even from the government side there’s a recognition that fighting pollution needs public participation. That’s why last year we saw the Environmental Protection Law revised for the first time in 25 years. It created a special chapter with a title on transparency and public participation. It shows there’s more social consensus for the need of transparency.连政府方面都否认，管理污染必须公众参予。这也是为什么我们看见去年环境保护法获得了25年来的第一次改动修改。新的环保法专门重新加入了一个以信息公开发表和公众参予为题的章节。

这展现出了必须更加多透明度的社会共识。Q. What was your reaction to receiving a Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship this month in Oxford?问：你对本月去牛津拒绝接受“斯科尔社会企业家奖”作何回忆？A. Of course I’m honored, but also quite humbled. They’ve done it for quite a few years, with hundreds of social entrepreneurs recognized in different parts of the world. This is the first time there’s been someone from China. I think this will be a major support.问：当我很荣幸，也深感受宠若惊。他们授予这个奖早已好几年了，全球各地数百位社会企业家取得了他们的嘉许。这是首次有中国人得奖。

我指出这是对我们的极大反对。The meeting itself has already benefited us because we can learn so much from other social entrepreneurs. This helps us to gain credibility with the business community, because some of the largest multinationals are there. And then the other people, the other awardees, I think some were quite surprised about our work because this is a different type of story than they usually hear from China.这个会议本身早已令其我们获益，因为我们可以向其他社会企业家糅合良多。它也有助我们夺得商业界的信任，因为有一些大型跨国公司也到场。

那里还有其他人，其他获奖者，我感觉其中有些人对我们的工作深感十分吃惊，因为这与他们一般来说听见的中国的事情不过于一样。Q. The award comes with $1.25 million in prize money. What will you do with it?问：这个奖项有125万美元的奖金。

你不会怎么花上这些钱呢？A. We will spend most of that to build on our pollution map. We now have a 2.0 version called the Blue Map. We hope the image of the blue sky that has been lost in most of our cities can inspire people to join the effort. We will use most of the prize money to try to further develop that.问：我们不会把大部分钱花在绘制污染地图上。我们现在有一个2.0版本，称作“蔚蓝地图”。我们期望蓝天的图片可以鼓舞人们重新加入这项活动，因为中国大部分城市的天空都仍然蔚蓝了。

我们不会把大部分奖金用在更进一步研发这个地图上。One of the functions we are going to add is taking a picture, so you can actually get data printed on that. So people can share their own pictures on social media and get data on that from our sources.我们要加到照片功能，这样你就可以在自己的照片上表明从我们的数据源取得的数据，然后你可以在社交媒体上共享这些照片，更好的人就可以看见我们的数据。Another, much bigger function we need is to add a platform for green consumerism. It is quite important for us to engage with consumers. If we help people visualize the link between air and water pollution, factory behavior and then consumer choice. Then we develop a methodology to score those brands. If we help to visualize that, then we provide another way for people to fight pollution. I hope this gives those brands a better incentive for responsible corporate behavior.另外，我们还必须一个更大的功能，就是减少一个绿色消费平台。

让消费者参予进去，这对我们很最重要。如果我们把空气和水污染、工厂的不道德以及消费者的自由选择之间的联系展开可视化，然后制订一种方法来给那些品牌评分。如果我们作出这种可视化的资料，那么我们就获取了另一种方式，让人们来与污染做到斗争。我期望这是一种更佳的鼓舞方式，来增进那些品牌采行负责任的企业不道德。

With the launch of the 2.0 version, air quality data will be extended from 190 to 380 cities in China every hour. We will also have some forecasts, not just weather forecasts but also forecasts of air quality, so people better arrange their activities to avoid the worst exposure. For the first time it will have data on water quality in rivers and lakes in different parts of China. China has made remarkable progress. Three years ago no cities in China released PM 2.5 [fine particulate matter] data. Today there are 380 that do.随着2.0版本的发售，我们获取每小时空气质量数据的中国城市数目将从原本的190个减少到380个。我们也不会获取一些预报，某种程度是天气预报，也还包括空气质量预报，让人们更佳地决定自己的活动，避免最差劲的环境。

这也不会是首次为中国有所不同地区的江河湖泊获取水质数据。中国早已获得了明显的进展。三年前，中国没任何城市发布PM 2.5[粗颗粒物]数据。

如今早已有380个城市在这么做到。We have to handle this quite carefully. Transparency is what we depend on. It’s very positive for the government. We give credit to the government. But it’s not easy. I hope that this can continue. If it does, it will drive more polluting factories to change. This boosts confidence for further transparency, which I think is so important.我们必需非常小心地积极开展这些工作。透明度是我们的扎根之所。政府回应是十分具体的。

这方面我们要认同政府。但是这并不更容易。我期望能持续下去。

如果真为能之后，它就不会推展更加多污染企业作出转变。而这将进一步提高人们对透明度的信心，我指出这一点极为重要。

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